Sex Talk Episode 15- Chemsex
Voice Over: Sex talk. Coming up on this episode of sex talk:
Pank: I don't remember exactly when or where I caught the disease but I've got a pretty good idea that it would have been at a particular sex party and the reason I say that is because I remember that particular time not using condoms and not questioning it either.
Monty: People have grown up with this sense of being second class or sense of being not as worthy as heterosexual people and people carry that with them.
Voice Over: Sex talk. Starting a conversation about sex. -
Hilary : Welcome to Sex Talk, a podcast all about with me Hilary Ineomo-Marcus,
Adele : And me, Adele Roberts, and sex talk is a frank and honest and open chat about something I'm quite often educated about on this podcast, sex.
Hilary : Indeed, our favourite topic by no means of course, and we're always joined by experts and sexperts who tell us all about the birds and the bees in a very unconventional manner.
Adele : I've learned loads doing this though, have you?
Hilary : Absolutely. Loads about HIV and just to be a much more responsible adult.
Hilary : You can follow us on Twitter @SexTalkRadioUK and visit our website sextalk.radio
Adele : And make sure you subscribe to the podcast to hear the latest episodes as soon as they are released we'd love you to have them all!
Hilary : In this episode of Sex Talk we'll be finding out about something called Chemsex.
Adele : Chemsex is where people take a variety of drugs and people take this combination of drugs for enhanced libido and uninhibited sex. Chemsex generally happens at 'Chemsex parties' which involve several men and can last for days.
Adele : It also found that those engaging in Chemsex were five times more likely to be diagnosed with HIV than those who were not. Risky. So I feel like it's a lot of pleasure but also a lot of risks at the same time.
Hilary : It's a new phenomenon really, it's not a word that I was familiar with until a week ago.
Adele : I'll be honest with you I only heard the word today. So today we will be finding out more about what Chemsex is, why people do it, what the risks are, how people engaging in Chemsex can be safer, and what help is available to those who are finding it problematic.
Hilary : We're going to be joined in the studio in just a moment by Pank, who has his own story to tell about Chemsex.
Adele : Hilary will also be speaking to Monty Moncrieff, CEO of London Friend, the UK's oldest Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans charity about what they're doing to help men looking for support with problems they are having with Chemsex.
Adele : Welcome Pank to Sex Talk. Wonderful to see you.
Pank : It's lovely to be here.
Hilary : Pank you've heard us mumbling on and on about what Chemsex is, you're the expert today so Pank what is Chemsex and when did you first hear that word?
Pank : Chemsex is basically what you said at the beginning of the show. It is drugs that are taken in combination to enhance the experience of sex. It could be anything from 2, 3, 4, 5 drugs at a time. The typical combination is at the minute GBL, crystal meth, and mephedrone. I first heard about it gosh… probably I'd say in the late 90s was when I first came across it and it was when I was overseas that I first started to indulge in it and to a degree where it progressed before it actually stopped. So it's been around for quite some time. It's evolved and the form that we have now is very different from the form that we would have had back in the 90s but it is still Chemsex none the less.
Adele : Pank, to somebody who's never taken those drugs and has only heard about them through the media, they sound quite scary to me. So what made you get involved in the first place?
Pank : I would say that was curiosity. I remember having a conversation with somebody that was on them and I was trying to get them to explain to me exactly how it made them feel and I don't know if it's because they were trashed or not, but they couldn't explain it adequately enough for me, and I took it and I completely understood what they were saying. In those moments where they couldn't say anything I completely understood what they were saying and it was just a moment where I wanted to experience it, I did that and it was fine and left it and left it for quite some time, for I don't know how many months or so after that I decided okay I'll do it again.
Adele: So you know what I'm going to ask you now – how does it make you feel?
Pank : It's really difficult to explain it. It genuinely is. It's really hard. It's like every skin cell is buzzing with electricity and so any touch that you have ripples through you like this little current and it just enhances everything. Literally every hair on your body sticks up and it's like somebody's blowing on your skin, when your hairs rise up. It's very erotic. I suppose that's the best way I can describe it.
Adele: And how do you get to the parties?
Pank : So there are sites where these parties might be advertised. Basically just using the gay apps where there you are trying to pick up someone else but if you've got 4, 5 people with you you can say hey we're having a party I've got 6, 7 people with me do you want to join us and it's as easy as that, it literally is as easy as that. I've sent messages to somebody where I've literally just said do you want to have sex? Yes? Great, here's the address.
Adele: You get to the address, what happens then?
Pank : First thing usually is your clothes fall off.
Hilary : So complete stranger, don't know who you are but get your gear off.
Pank : Clothes don't usually stay on too long. So look there are some people who will go to these sex parties that don't do them, that don't engage in Chemsex, but there are a lot that will. But how each individual does it is entirely up to them, it's not a group thing, but at the same time I think what happens with that is that it can make it very dangerous because if somebody doesn't know what you've done and how much you've done and something were to happen they can't help you because they don't have that information. For example with the GBL it's very dangerous to take more than one dose every hour, hour and a half so I know somebody that would literally – he would be in charge of giving out the doses – and he would write down in a book exactly what time it was taken and how much was taken so that if anyone came up to him and said can I have another shot actually you only had that half an hour ago, so you can't, and it was a way of ensuring not just the safety of the people that were there but his own safety as well if anything were to happen, so it just depends but again with any drug when you're on it all reason goes out the window so it can get a bit messy and sticky at times.
Hilary : On the back of Chemsex parties and hearing Pank talk about it, sadly stories of people taking fatal overdoses at Chemsex parties are becoming increasingly common. The number of people dying after taking GHB in London rose by 119% in just a year, with somebody dying from GHB or GBL every 12 days in London in 2015. Is this something you have seen happen to people you know?
Pank : Yes. I've not seen it physically but I know people that have died as a result of overdosing on it too much and it's hard to deal with, it's sad to deal with, it's heart-breaking to deal with especially when you look at these individuals in their normal everyday lives are people that work very hard, people that were making great successes of themselves and should have gone on to have these incredible careers in life and it's just whisked away from them simply because they were unable to control what it was they were taking. Really what they should be doing if they are going to do it is to slowly decrease the amount.
Hilary: The term slamming is often mentioned when people talk about Chemsex- what is it, and what risks does it carry?
Pank : Slamming is injecting the drugs intravenously. It has become a phenomenon. It's become something that has allowed intravenous drug use to become part of the norm. This has made it fashionable almost. You will have people in extremely high positions of power in careers who will be slamming at the weekends and you wouldn't know and certainly I think within the gay community it is something that is very big, a lot of people will slam.
Hilary : What would you say are the obvious risks?
Pank : You've got for example by not actually getting the vein properly what you do is as you inject the liquid into your body it will form a lump because it's not going into the vein it's sitting around it. That in itself can cause an infection. By repeated use in the same place you start to build up scar tissue around that vein. The vein eventually will shut down anyway so it won't work, not just for that but for your own body but obviously if you're reusing a needle over and over again then you've got viruses like Hepatitis C, HIV that you can pass on especially if you're sharing those needles and obviously every time you use a disposable needle the needle itself becomes blunt so piercing a vein becomes more painful, it leads to more bruising and eventually more damage as well.
Adele: So if someone's listening now, that's started going to Chemsex parties, enjoys them, maybe somebody's said why don't you try slamming what would you say? What's the best way to stay safe?
Pank : I don't think I can ever say to somebody don't do this or don't do that I think it's wrong for anyone to say that. What I can say is that if you're going to do it then be sensible about it. Be aware of your own limits so it's the same thing for example I know if I have more than three vodka tonics or gin and tonics that's it so I will limit myself to that because I know that after that I turn into this mischievous little imp…
Adele: This sounds very familiar.
Pank : So it's about knowing those limits, it's about understanding your own body and everybody's body is going to be completely different. It's about taking the time to understand what your limits are and then making sure that you are disciplined enough to stick to them and know when to cut yourself off and say right that's it I've had enough now.
Adele: So even when you're in party mode just know your limits, stick to them.
Pank : Yeah and obviously I think it's always better to have someone around that is there to look out for you in the same way that you can look out for them, but of course, again, like I say when you're in a room full of strangers who are simply doing this for their own gratification, for their own pleasure and it is about their pleasure then really why are they going to care about anyone else so it's not always appropriate or possible to be able to rely on other people.
Adele: Hilary I feel like Pank is one of the most intelligent people that I've ever spoken to. I feel like he's going to smash our game, do you fancy playing our game with him?
Hilary : Yes why not let's test that knowledge of his.
Adele: Get the book.
Hilary : Let's get it out. It's word porn time.
Adele: Have we given you too big a talk up, are you nervous now?
Adele: Okay so we have the dictionary of sex and what we're going to do is we're going to flick through it and ask you to pick a letter. You give us a letter, any letter, and we'll find a word beginning with that letter and you just have to guess what it means.
Pank : Let's try.
Adele: Okay so letter please.
Pank : P.
Adele: Right okay.
Pank : Are you purposefully picking out the hardest one?
Adele: No I'm finding one that's not too geeky because some of them are literally anatomy and you'll get it too easy as well, like pregnancy what do you think that could be? Okay… I feel like you might know this one. I'm going to go for a different one. Proctophobia.
Pank : Is the fear of… anal exams.
Adele: See he's too good. Smashed it. Seriously, it's a morbid fear of anything related to the rectum such as enemas, rectal examinations or anal intercourse.
Hilary : Wow.
Adele: We're going to need a bigger book.
Pank : That was truly a guess. Well it was power of deduction. Phobia would obviously be fear, procto you think proctal exams so proctal being the rear end.
Adele : There were other ones I was going to do but I couldn't read them out.
Hilary : Well done, we now challenge you to use that sometime this week.
Adele: There has been a lack of support for people engaging in Chemsex, as it is only in the last few years that the government has recognised support is needed, and there are some amazing charities doing some much needed work around Chemsex. Hillary went to visit one of these charities last week, London Friend, and spoke with their CEO, Monty Moncrieff, about Chemsex and the work they do…
Hilary : I'm in the wonderful office of Mr Monty Moncreiff, the chief executive of London Friend, the UK's oldest lesbian bisexual gay and trans charity, thank you so much for having us.
Monty : You're welcome. It's nice to have you here.
Hilary : The number of years of experience you have in this industry I'd imagine you've come across so many things but there is a new phenomenon now around Chemsex. What is different about the use of these particular drugs?
Monty : So with the two stimulant drugs, mephedrone and crystal meth, they're both very strong stimulants and people are wanting to use more and more of them so they're being kept awake for a longer period of time, so it's not uncommon for people to be using over a 48 hour or 72 hour period in situations where sexual behaviour is also happening. The impact of being awake for that long on a regular basis is going to start having an impact on your mental health. People are starting to feel anxious or they're starting to feel paranoid with the come down. They're even getting drug induced psychosis with very very frequent uses. And then with G there's two different problems really. One is acute toxicity you can pass out and actually go into a coma so they might be at a sex party and pass out and people don't realise that, they've carried on having sex with them, some really unpleasant behaviour's happening and unfortunately if you take a larger dose it can be fatal, but also with G it's a dependence forming drug. Your body can get used to it, it's a very physical dependence and so we were seeing people that were extending their weekend by using just a little bit more than the active dose to help them sleep at the end of the weekend, well actually they were passing out, and when they were feeling anxious with the comedown starting the next day they'd take a little bit less than the active dose just to take the edge off but it meant that they were extending their use into the week and their weekends were meeting in the middle.
Hilary : So what risk are people putting themselves at by engaging in Chemsex?
Monty : We're seeing an association with Chemsex and the lack of condom use so there are risks of STIs and risks of HIV. Also risks of hepatitis are increased because of the injecting behaviour that can be happening as well. But we also try to think about problems happening in a broader more holistic sense, so somebody's drug use might be becoming problematic for them if for example it's impacting their ability to get to work on a Monday, or it's impacting on their relationship, or it's impacting on their family life, or it's impacting on their finances, and we would say to people really, if your drug use is starting to have an impact on any of those areas come and see us or come and seek some help.
Hilary : What support do you offer people who are engaging in Chemsex when they walk through your doors?
Monty : So we offer a fully comprehensive drug and alcohol service so we can do some practical work around managing your goal, we can do things like complimentary therapies which seem to help people with withdrawals, with cravings, and we do ongoing therapy. We've got some group work programmes and we work one to one, a counselling service to address the underlying issues, and we also have an intensive therapeutic programme called SWAP our structured weekend antidote programme. We run that three times a year and it's kind of like the more intensive next step for people. We often find that we do some work around the drug issue but actually we're dealing with the underlying issues and we've got a group of people who are dealing with deep seated trauma of having grown up in a society that's been homophobic, actively homophobic in terms of discriminatory laws, and although we've had some great advances and change in the law, people have grown up with this sense of being second class or sense of you're not as worthy as heterosexual people, and people carry that with them so that can manifest itself into shame or embarrassment or guilt around the kind of sex that they have, or not feeling that their relationships are worthy and this all comes out in the work that we do. So it's on the surface it's drug and alcohol work but the majority of it is around people's sense of self or sense of who they are or sense of how comfortable they feel as an LGBT person. It can be very tempting when you're first coming out to throw yourself into the bars and clubs. I worked on the LGBT switchboard for 10 years as a volunteer and almost every call where somebody called to come out, they would then go and say 'well where's my local gay bar' because they wanted to go and connect with people and those connections are made in an environment where alcohol is available and very often other drugs are available. Of course if that's the lifestyle then it's very beguiling, it makes you think you've arrived if you like, you've found the place. Very often when we strip away and start doing the more detailed work with people, they're talking about the connection they want to have with people, they're talking about that feeling of identifying and belonging somewhere and they just don't seem to be able to find it in the Chemsex scene but if we can help people feel better about themselves and who they are, we can help promote healthier relationships that don't depend on drugs and alcohol to disinhibit.
Hilary : If somebody's listening to this interview now and engaged in Chemsex already, or even thinking about engaging in it what would you say to that?
Monty : Well I guess if somebody's thinking about engaging in it we would say read up and find out all the information about it but if you're having difficulties and you're currently using then ask for some support. It doesn't have to mean giving up completely, there are options we can look at around cutting down and controlling if that's a worry for you but we would say the earlier people contact us the easier it is to turn some circumstances around.
Hilary : Monty, thank you ever so much for your time, it was great talking to you.
Monty : You're welcome, thank you.
Adele: That was really in depth and sobering and it's been really good to speak to Pank today because Pank to me is very intelligent, obviously read up on Chemsex, sounds like he keeps himself really safe and it sounds like it's a choice for you Pank?
Pank : Yeah well having obviously started to do it a bit more regularly what I found was that I wanted to do it more regularly and got to a point where I guess I knew I wasn't happy with the fact that every time I had sex it would involve this huge dramatic production of chemicals. It wouldn't just be me it would be the other people as well so it almost takes the shine off it a bit, and you just don't enjoy it anymore, especially then if you're constantly looking out for people and where people don't realise or take the time to recognise where their limits are what I found was that I was suddenly around more and more people that were doing too much.
Adele: When you say too much, I mean Monty's saying there it can go on for 72 hours, I didn't realise that the parties could go on that long and that someone could stay awake for 72 hours.
Pank : That's just a small party. I think the longest I went in one sitting, and it might be different parties, you're going from one to another to another, I think was about 5 days.
Adele: How did that affect you mentally and physically?
Pank : Physically at the time because your body is pumped up with all these drugs and stuff you don't actually realise that your body might be suffering. You try to rehydrate it as much as you can, you use things like Dioralytes to get the salts and sugars back into your body, you're exhausted, you're tired, so by the time you crash, you crash. But what Monty was saying was right, it can bring out this psychotic behaviour and tendencies and if there's any mental health issues there already it can amplify them.
Adele: It heightens everything.
Pank : Exactly, exactly, that's exactly what a drug does anything it heightens everything.
Hilary : Pank, drawing from Monty's interview I wanted to get your opinion on this as well, is dating apps or are dating apps making sex and drugs readily available?
Pank : The dating apps that are used by gay men are making sex readily available. I wouldn't necessarily say they make drugs readily available but yes since the advent of them it's almost like these chains were taken off allowing the gay world to go off in this direction and be absolutely hedonistic, without fear or care of consequences or actions and it's difficult to understand because to a certain degree it's quite liberating. You stand back and look at it and you think this is exactly what life should be. Where you can say what you want, do what you want, be with who you want and be accepted for that, and I think there's something quite liberating or freeing about that. But at the same time you look at it and you just think this is self-destructive because it's becoming such a huge problem and you think we've worked so hard to get to a point where we can have these equal rights, where we can get married, we can have this and have that, and what we choose to do is implode ourselves by taking a few drugs to enhance sex and that in itself is really quite sad. I think there will come a point where it will saturate and there will be something quite harsh that will happen before people really start to wake up and realise. I think that's what it takes is for something quite harsh to happen to someone. It could be the death of someone that you know, it could be for example in my case, my going to prison for a drug related offence made a lot of my friends sit up and pay attention to how much they were doing and so what they found was that in the time that I'd been in prison their drug intake has reduced dramatically because they realised they were putting themselves at risk as well in the same way that I did.
Hilary : As you just mentioned, you yourself were released from prison less than two weeks ago. Prison health care professionals have reported seeing a spike in people coming to prison who have previously engaged in Chemsex. Having experienced prison yourself what would you say to someone who's purring themselves in that situation. Perhaps they end up with a prison sentence?
Pank : Okay. The experience itself is not a great one. Having your civil liberties and your freedom taken away from you is never going to be acceptable to anyone. So you're always going to struggle with that. What I would say to people is to really think about is this worth it? Is that high, is that moment of euphoria, is that moment of sexual gratification truly worth losing your freedom and your liberty over because that's effectively what happened. What I cared about at that moment was how I felt when I was having sex and nothing else mattered. Nothing at all, but it mattered certainly when I'm sitting there in a cell with the door closed for 23 and a half hours a day and that's where I had the time to understand what I was doing, what I was saying, and the fact that I had put myself in a situation where my own greed and my own ego and gratification had overtaken any form of sensibility whatsoever.
Adele: So if you ask yourself that question now would the answer be no it's not worth it?
Pank : Absolutely it's not worth it, of course it's not worth it. There is not a single reality where losing your liberty and your freedom is ever worth it.
Hilary : We mentioned earlier in the episode that gay men engaging in Chemsex were 5 times more likely to receive a new HIV diagnosis than gay men not engaging in Chemsex.
Adele : The same study found that gay men who practiced Chemsex were also more likely to have anal sex without a condom than those who do not, which explains why people might be more at risk.
Hilary : Pank, you were diagnosed as HIV positive 8 years ago, were you involved with Chemsex?
Pank : At that time it was more about going out, going clubbing and having a dance that's really what it was about but again I got invited to a sex party where these drugs were available, where I tried them and realised that this was as far as I was concerned was the best thing ever and so it became something that became more regular. Not to the point where it was all the time but it was certainly more regular than I was doing it before so that was my first experience of Chemsex parties. I don't remember exactly where or when I caught the disease, but I've got a pretty good idea that it would have been at a particular sex party, and the reason I say that is because I remember that particular time not using condoms and not questioning it either and so if there were a time where something could have happened it would have been that time.
Hilary : How did you find out that you were HIV positive?
Pank : I'd started to feel unwell over a period of time and went to see my GP and he took some bloods and the bloods came back and he said they're out of synch, your liver function tests were a bit weird, your kidney function tests were a bit weird so he suggested I go and see the haematologist at the hospital so he booked an appointment for me. I went to see the consultant who said okay look we'll take some more bloods and start from scratch, and if you don't mind I'll test for Hepatitis B and HIV as well, and I was like yeah that's fine. I never in a million years thought anything more of it. So when I went back for the results I was told that I was HIV positive. My jaw hit the ground. Because you could have asked me to give you a list of things that were wrong with me and that would have been at the very bottom. I didn't once think that would be the reason I was feeling so unwell. But when I got my diagnosis my white blood cell count was quite low. Infection was very low which is why I was feeling so ill which is why I was constantly getting ill because the body couldn't fight it off, the white blood cells weren't there to fight it off. So for me that came, my diagnosis came at a point where if it was left any longer it could have become extremely dangerous, getting the sniffles could have been enough to finish me off.
Adele: Thank god you went to get seen!
Pank : I couldn't eat eggs for months and months, I couldn't eat any kind of shellfish or prawns or anything like that simply because if there were any bacteria in those that would be enough to kill me. That's how low my immune system got. So mine was caught just in the nick of time and it's because of course I hadn't, up until that point, I'd gone for a couple of regular tests that I'd instigated myself but I was also part of a health in men study and there every three months you would have this series of questions about your lifestyle, about how much sex you were having yadder, yadder, yadder and they would also do a HIV test. When that study finished that was the last test that I had so there was a really long gap between then and when I was diagnosed and that's simply because I didn't get tested which is why it's so important for people to get tested every three months on the dot because you just don't know what happens from one minute to the next especially if you are, in this day and age, as we are, promiscuous and prone to take chances of not being safe. I'm never ever going to say to somebody don't go to a sex party because that would be cruel to deny someone of that, but like I said, what you can do is you can make sure that you are safe, you can make sure that you do what it is that is best for you and that you don't put yourself in a situation whereby you can be put in harm's way. As Monty said, when people take too much and they pass out I know people that have passed out and been raped as a result, or have been fed this so that they could be raped and so it can be filmed and it's horrible, and it's disgusting, and the effect that it has on the people that have experienced this is long lasting. So for example if you're going to do these drugs, you measure it out. Nobody touches that unless you've done it yourself. You don't use their supply, you use yours. All these little things can help you stay safer if you are going to do it.
Adele : Thank you so much Pank I think we'll leave it there.
Pank : My pleasure.
Adele: We're almost out of time in this episode of Sex Talk, but of course, Dr Stuart is on hand to bust one more myth before we go…
Hilary: Dr Stuart Flannagan, a specialist in sexual health and HIV is here with me once again in the studio and has had lots of practice busting loads of myths on sex talk so far. Are you read for another one Dr Stuart?
Dr Stuart : I am ready Hilary go for it.
Hilary : Fantastic. Okay true or false, once you've had an STI you can't get the same one again. Let's see what the public thought of this one when I asked them.
Once you've had an STI you can't get the same one again. True or false?
That's false you can get the same one again and again, it depends if you go back to the same partner or you change your partner.
That's like saying if you get a cold you can't get a cold again so I'd say you can get it again.
False. You can get it a couple of times.
Hilary : Adele, STIs are they like a cold?
Adele: Yeah I think so I wish it was true, I wish you couldn't get them again, like a checklist and you're like I've had that one you can't touch me again but no, I think you can get it again.
Hilary : Another unanimous verdict there Dr Stuart, everyone said false – is it?
Dr Stuart : Yeah so the vast majority of STIs you can get re-infected with them and someone made a really good point there you could get re-infected from the same partner which is why it's really important for partners to be treated at the same time as the person who's coming for the check-up if they find that they have an STI and also the majority of viruses you could get re-infected with so for example hepatitis C someone might have that, get treatment and be cured of Hep C but could get re-infected with it again. You could get a different strain of a virus for example HPV and potentially be re-infected with it. Something like herpes most people who acquire it once won't get re-infected they'll develop immunity to it so with that in particular you might not get re-infected. HIV is one people ask me about because if someone is HIV positive could they get re-infected with HIV. The answer is they could get re-infected with a different strain of HIV and potentially one that's resistant to treatment, so in general yes you can definitely get a reinfection.
Hilary : Interesting thank you so much Dr Stuart for busting that myth.
Adele : If you need further advice or support on any of the issues raised in this episode of Sex Talk contact your GP. They should provide out of hours contact details for emergency calls, and should be able to point you in the right direction of Chemsex services in your area.
Hilary : Alternatively you can go online - www.nhs.co.uk - to find your nearest STI testing and treatment service.
Adele : You can order a self-testing HIV test from hivselftest.co.uk and you can see if you're eligible for a free testing kit from the Terrence Higgins Trust by going to test.tht.org.uk/
Hilary : If you're in London and feel like your Chemsex involvement is getting out of control, visit londonfriend.org.uk for more help and advice.
Adele : And if you're concerned about HIV - Positively UK - can offer advice. Their helpline is open Monday to Friday 10am-4pm on 020 7713 0444 and you can visit their website positivelyuk.org.
The next episode is going to be the final episode of this second series of sex talk.
Hilary : Oh no, don't leave me! What am I going to do with my life?
Adele: What am I going to do with my book?
Hilary : I'll leave that to your conscience. I'll be talking more about HIV and we'll be joined in the studio by regular sexpert Dr Staurt Flanagan and Matthew Hogson, executive director of a leading UK HIV charity NAM. They'll be busting more myths than you can shake a stick at and setting the record straight about HIV.
Adele : Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast to keep up to date with the latest episodes, and to follow us on Twitter, we're @sextalkradiouk
Hilary : You can join in the conversation using #SexTalkPod
Adele: Until next time stay safe
Hilary: And keep talking.